Click to zoom map
Right now, only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on SAT scores are as follows: (source)
- South Carolina – 49th
- North Carolina – 38th
- Georgia – 48th
- Texas – 45th
- Virginia – 34th
(source)
In the interest of being as apolitical as possible, I think it’s important to note that there are of course lots of factors at play here. While this is indeed a contentious issue around the country, it’s important to get all the facts. The truth of the matter is that the facts don’t seem to be readily available. That being said, this article by Politifact.com seems to have the most amount of research and information when it comes to understanding the correlation between collective bargaining agreements and students’ scores. I hope this article informs and keeps you thinking about this important topic.
Could you site the test score source please? I went to ACT.org, and the data for ther test says that out of the bottom 5 states, ALL either permit or require collective bargaing. Sorry for the long link : http://www.act.org/news/data/10/states.html?utm_campaign=cccr10&utm_source=data&utm_medium=web
is it really safe to say this is a causal relationship, or just two symptoms of other problems
sure Mark.. it's just a coincidence.
As much as I wish your argument was convincing, I fear that it doesn't have much to do with collective bargaining. So I'm interested to know if you have the corresponding map that shows the states with the highest union membership has the highest ACT/SAT scores? Would that be interesting?
Bravo
This is an interesting article that appears to address your concerns. http://studentactivism.net/2011/02/20/sat-act-uni…
What source did the state rankings come from?
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/sta…
Hey all, I wanted to let you know I've updated the article and wanted to make it more about asking questions rather than trying to inflame one side or the other. I truly appreciate your comments and look forward to the vigorous discussion. Thanks for reading the blog. -Jeff
If you hit the "main page" link it looks like these numbers are from 1999…
thanks Dan! i saw that. I have just updated it with 2010 rankings using this source: http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/…
The "data" is from 1999 and I wonder how valid it is. Virginia was above the mean in all three SAT subtests in 2010- http://bit.ly/ih3nrm. Not many Virginia students take the ACT. – see http://bit.ly/e1Grxa. We must find way to lift the WI teachers without stomping on other teachers..real teachers ALL work hard & deserve respect.
From your link:
"Further, there is even less evidence to support the implication that strong unionization is the cause for one state performing better than another."
Rather than look at policy sites, I went straight to the data from the ACT and CollegeBoard websites.
Looking at ACT Scores (2010), VA is in the top 15 (out of 51) in composite scores, and NC in top 25. Though SC scores the lowest of the states you mention, it managed to outperform Washington DC (excluded from your 'analysis, I suppose because its not a state), Michigan, Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Wyoming and Mississippi.
As I look at SAT data, VA seems to be well above average. Other states are low, but not the lowest. And they've made significant gains over the past 10 years.
If you expand to AP Scores, VA is in the top 10 states with the highest percentage of students scoring a 3 or higher on at least 1 AP exam.
As I see you've modified your post since I started this comment, should I expect another update celebrating the fact that NC managed to jump from 49th to 38th place without collective bargaining? And VA from 44th to 34th? What state has taken SC's place at #50? Did we lose a state from our union, or is it possible that a collective bargaining state fell behind?
Whether your original stats were accurate or not, for the sake of intellectual honesty, I recommend that you list the bottom 10, 25, or 30 states, and merely emphasize (bold) those without collective bargaining.
The southern states (including Texas) have very few students taking these tests. This skews their test results. Many of their secondary students do not complete HS. The % of test takers in most of the other states is much higher; in some states, it is required of all students. When the data collection is more consistent, the comparisons will be more dramatic.
I doubt many – if any states – pay teachers 90,000 a year – aren't we a little out of touch with reality
Average Milwaukee Public School teacher is over 100K compensation in 2011. Average salary is over 56K + 45K in benefits. These numbers come from MPS itself. This is the same union that in 2010 filed a lawsuit to get Viagra (and other ED drugs) coverage back under their insurance plan at an expsense to the school board of an estimated 750K
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-t…
Dist 230 in Illinois has many teachers with pay over $90,000, A couple years ago one of the shop teachers in district 204 retired making over $100,000. it was all on the web site the champions.org.
Better look at New Jersey – and don't forget to add in the value of 100% paid benefits and two full months off in the summer, in addition to two full weeks and many other days off during the school year.
Which states pay their instructors in excess of $90,000.00/year…are they union or non union?
Wisconsin does in at least 5 counties!
I was referring to the pay of Wisconsin teachers. >$90,000 in at least 5 counties.
Adams, Alexander $95,148
Akers, Laura $71,075
Albin, Raymond $115,306
Alshouse, Veronica $76,929
Anderson, James $124,625
Anderson, Kurt $124,326
Angelos, Kelly $70,271
Atwell, Corey $112,129
Aucutt, Jean $142,116
Austin, Curtis $134,787
Ballenger, Cheryl $71,135
Baxter, Kip $112,495
Beagle, Deborah $63,488
Bellecomo, William $112,006
Bellito, Matthew $77,463
Bellito, Rebecca $74,812
Birtman, Scott $118,596
Bitta, Andrew $132,876
Bizosky, Thomas $100,161
Bogumil, Scott $112,005
Bomgaars, Craig $107,913
Here's the salaries of the teachers from my high school distritct. The last one for example is a freshman Bio Honors teacher. Andy Bitta is a health teacher, teaching only a few classes per day.
You're either a very good fiction writer or you've copied and pasted from someone else who is a very good fiction writer. What district? What state? A first year teacher makes $107,913?
Community high school district 128 in Illinois. Illinois teacher's salaries are disclosed publicly online at http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php go to find a district and type "chsd 128" There you will find this information.
This must include the benefit costs to the district associated with each teacher.
They are still probably netting less than half of that.
no this is actual salary, what Mike is saying is right. My district is 230 and they are just as high
Not a first year teacher. According to the full data set, Mr. Bomgaars has 16 years experience in the district, 24 years in the state. The health teacher has 32 years of service. The full data set on which that familytaxpayers db is based can be found at http://www.isbe.state.il.us/research/htmls/teache….
Note that these numbers also include administration, whose salaries are not negotiated by a union.
Wow! Guess I need to move. After teaching 23 years in Texas, I think I’m up to $52,000. Next year, it’s likely school districts will be able to lower the starting salary of teachers to $27,000. Don’t know how anyone can pay off student loans and survive on that. If you add up all the time I spend before school, after school, and on weekends working, I’ve eaten up all that summer time off you were talking about.
Wow! Guess I need to move. After teaching 23 years in Texas, I think I’m up to $52,000. Next year, it’s likely school districts will be able to lower the starting salary of teachers to $27,000. Don’t know how anyone can pay off student loans and survive on that. Maybe they’ll start hiring high school grads, if they can find them.
In outstate Minnesota our top admin spots don't make that kind of money unless you include fringe benefits. This is my 12th year teaching 'at risk' senior high school students. I have a masters in special education; three certifications (SLD, EBD, Social Studies). This year my salary is $55,550, 11 sick days, 2 personal days, no holiday pay, $6,000 HRA (no medical, dental, vision). Base salary is just over $27,000 for a 180 day contract.
These salaries do not reflect the extra duties of teachers, number of years teaching, or education of the individual teacher.
I'm teaching in the wrong state! I have a masters, teach 185 days, and have 13 yrs experience and only make 38,000 a year. Our district's base salary is only 24k. Our single teachers with children and less than 5 yrs experience must work second jobs to survive while working towards their masters degrees. And they want to cut pay, make us pay more for benefits, and still require us to pay for our masters when they don't pay us enough to pay for it.
State and federal govts grade us on how well the students perform on a test. Do we rate our doctors by how healthy their patients are? Or our legislature by how well people follow the laws?
It is sometimes disconcerting to look at the ACT and SAT scores. Many students that take these tests have decided to be college-bound. It would be more interesting to look at data based on tests that all students take, but there isn't "one test" to be used.
I wish the protesters all the best, but these statistics unfortunately shed no light on the debate. The list you show don't account for demographic differences between states, nor for selection bias. States with the fewest fraction of test-takers (e.g. Iowa) tend to have the highest scores, since only college-bound students bother taking the test. On the other hand, Maine is ranked dead last, partly because all are asked to participate, no matter how ill-prepared.
Or more to the point: Wisconsin's high scores are based on only 4% of students participating; Georgia's for example is based on 74%. (And then there are the rather demographic differences).
I think that you should update your article. This doesn't make sense when you look at the 2010 ACT / SAT scores.
Using NAEP rankings for most recent 8th grades scores (12th grades being too spotty)
———————Math—Reading—Science—–Writing
Wisconsin———14——24———12————13
==========Non-Union States==========
Texas————–18——37———25————35
Virginia————-22——23———17————16
North Carolina—-28——35———37————29
South Carolina—-33——42———39————38
Georgia————36——34———31————27
In general Wisconsin outperforms the 5 non-unionized states. These scores aren't adjusted for various demographic factors and the confidence intervals are sufficiently large that the scores sometimes overlap.
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/statecompari…
Doing a quick CPS pull, the % of 10-16 year olds who are born in the US (as of 2009):
Wisconsin—————- 95.1%
Texas———————92.1%
Virginia——————–94.5%
North Carolina———–95.2%
South Carolina———–98.7%
Georgia——————-95.7%
So ESL might explain the difference between WI and TX, but it won't explain the difference between WI and SC. WI and SC has also about the same population.
While these are just high level numbers, the general takeaway is that gutting the union will not cause a marked improvement in student performance.
I tried adjusting the NAEP rankings for demographic factors by multiplying the rank by the square root of the ratio of whites + Asians/blacks + Hispanics. (In all states blacks and Hispanic scored 10-15% lower.) I used Texas as the baseline since it has the highest ratio: 60% blacks and Hispanics/40% whites and Asians. The formula is:
State Ranking x Square Root ( State Ratio/Texas Ratio) = State Ranking .
The results were: Wisconsin 35__Texas 35__Virginia 27__North Carolina 43__South Carolina 53__Georgia 34.
I am sure that this is a very crude method, but it does give a rough idea of the impact of demographics.
While comparing a few states side by side it would seem the collective bargining was more efficient for the teachers, children, and parents to get the best bang for thier buck. However, what is not being talked about is all the states that fall in the "middle" We have unions in all 50 states and less then 50% of our states have a good ranking for the student.
Just because Wisconsin happens to be a state with dedicated employees and a first-rate system that prides itself on excellence doesn't mean the union has anything to do with that.
Furthermore, the quality of the educator's education makes the educator better. If we wanted to do a side by side comparison on many things we would also have to anaylize where the majority of the education of the teachers took place, which is most likely in the state they are now work in. AKA dumb teachers= dumb children
Smart teachers = smart children
I noticed no one put anything about California with a collective bargining union that does horribly on EVERY level.
I was educated in Illinois, so please excuse my grammer!!
So what if teachers average 100k? They have degrees and ARE TEACHING OUR CHILDREN. Duh! Who do you want as a teacher? A migrant worker who teaches for minimum hourly wages? Everyone asks like education is a business with a clear cut and cheap way to teach all kids… get real. Realize the countries that kick our butts actually invest in education…. something we could do if we weren’t strapped for cash, policing the global playground, and more interested in bipartisan one upmanship.Politicians only solve one problem: Their own. All other problems are foundations for postuering. Anyone who is myopic enough to complain that a teacher makes 1000k should try to remember who behind the priavte bailouts is making what and what they have gotten away with. Media and politicians have spent less time discussing wall street because they know small town main street would turn on itself when the belts got tight.
A more accurate view, would have included the 2010 ACT scores. But that shows Virginia (where collective bargaining is illegal) ranking higher than Wisconsin… which may go against your initial point.
Only 4% of Wisconsin students took the SAT in 2010 and they ranked 3rd! Three cheers for WI. I'm proud of my students! But, when I consider that 92% of the student population in Maine took the test and ranked dead last, I really cannot blame the teachers entirely. Were all of the students trying to enter college? Are they from equally privileged backgrounds? This is not equal comparison.
*One last thought on the SAT article. This is an interesting statement:
The Allegheny Institute has already weighed in on how Pennsylvania's increased education spending has not resulted in gains in SAT scores.
The TPM chart depicts "collective bargaining with public employees' unions" not teacher's unions.
Yes, collective bargaining by educators is prohibited at the five states depicted here, because it is prohibited for all public employees. However, the TPM chart lists another 11 states where collective bargaining is allowed, but the chart does not make it clear if it is allowed for ALL public employees. Therefore, there could be another 11 states that do not allow collective bargaining by teachers.
Finally, the TPM chart provides NO DATA SOURCE so it must not be taken on face value.
I'm concerned about all of the people who re-posted this article, believing that the information listed here was factual. There is an abundance of misinformation in this world. A wise person strives to learn from the truth, not cover it up.
I am a Wisconsin educator who desires a truthful and accurate assessment of data and not a false article to make me look good. My goal is to teach my students to think for themselves, to learn to decipher between fact versus fiction. How does the union promote this?
Some of the lowest ranked states require collective bargaining like Maine (51), Hawaii(47th), NY(46th), DE(44), NV(43)…
Why do we equate collective bargaining with how well teachers teach?
Because we collectively bargain for our working conditions…which are the students' learning conditions!!! It's not about the money…If you look, several school districts have collectively bargained with their teachers to take freezes over the past several years while our healthcare costs have gone up (so, their take home pay has actually decreased)…Class sizes, materials, daily schedules, professional development in current educational instruction, etc. are what's important to student success. Let's not forget the kids…they are the ones that will be hurt the most in all of this…
I work in a private school where our students score well above then national average on the PSAT, the SAT, and the ACT, usually in the top quartile. We are paid much less than public school teachers, our benefits are laughable, most of our teachers teach 6 of 7 periods with multiple preps. Our faculty is state certified and most have advanced degrees. Class sizes run about 20. Most of our students have strong parental support and financially stable homes. Our school climate is informed by the values of excellence, community, and faith. Perhaps there are more correlations to consider than collective bargaining.
If you keep making sense, they'll boot you. it's not about the kids, it's about the ability to get what they want from an electorate that was paid for by the union dues. if it was about the kids, then we wouldn't see teachers, firemen, policemen, state employees, etc…, fighting for collective bargaining. You can't argue it's about the kids when you refuse to give up the only tool you have that gives you the upper hand in any situation.
Moira, you're 100% correct.
And Moira, that is why we send our children to a small private school!
Great post!!!
Another article of interest on this topic: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/20…
If you buy that nonsensical ’cause-effect’ relationship, then surely you will see that states most ravaged by hurricanes cause poor student performance. Look at the map; what else can you conclude?
Isn’t it interesting that Edudemic, presumably an organization concerned about education, hasn’t a clue about statistics.
I downloaded the ACT data for 2010 for Wisconsin and 5 states that do not allow teachers to collectively bargain.
All Students – Wisconsin comes in 2nd of 6
VA 22.3, WI 22.1, NC 21.9, TX 20.8, GA 20.7, SC 20
Okay, so what?
Broken down into groups:
African American/Black – Wisconsin is in last place
VA 17.6, GA 17.4, NC 17.4, TX 17.3, SC 16.5, WI 16
American Indian/Alaska Native – Wisconsin is 4th of 6
VA 22, TX 21.6, GA 20.8, WI 20.2, SC 19.6, NC 19.3
Caucasian American/White – Wisconsin is 4th of 6
VA 23.5, NC 23.4, TX 23.1, WI 23, GA 22.9, SC 22.1
Hispanic – Wisconsing is 5th of 6
VA 21.6, NC 20.3, GA 20.1, SC 19.8, WI 18.7, TX 18.3
Asian American/Pacific Islander – Wisconsin is in last place
TX 24.5, NC 24.3, VA 24.2, GA 23.6, SC 23.4, WI 20.3
Other/No Response – Wisconsin is 3rd of 6
VA 22.9, NC 22.3, WI 21.2, GA 20.9, TX 20.7, SC 20
This seems to counter the argument that granting teachers collective bargaining privileges results in higher ACT scores.
From a scientific or statistical assessment, there is no correlation to ACT scores and collective bargaining. Collective bargaining it so totally different in every state that it is a ridiculous undertaking.
The states with no collective bargaining should at least have collective bargaining for the workplace conditions since the labor laws do not apply to teachers. Teachers can be seriously abused in states without this. Why should a teacher be afraid for their life at their job because students are dangerous? Shouldn't teachers be guaranteed a duty free lunch? Should administration be allowed to take away planning time every day? Should principals be able to ruin a teachers career the first few years of being a teacher? This an much more happens without unions. No, labor laws do not apply to teachers. How about mandatory collective bargaining about teacher working conditions only? It should be a national law. The states can debate on the rest of the unions' negotiating abilities.
Collective bargaining allows teachers the professional respect to work without having to worry about the infrastructure of their work-life. In every classroom, we start the school year saying that there are rules for a reason. Collective bargaining helps set up rules that both sides can follow to the benefit of all.
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